Interoception Changes How We Teach Regulation for PDA Autistic and Neurodivergent Kids (Guest Kelly Mahler)

Emotions Versus Body Truth

0:00 SPEAKER_00: For so long.

0:00 SPEAKER_00: Like I like when I was growing up, like we were taught like the way an emotion should feel.

0:05 SPEAKER_00: Like anger is when your fists are tight and your skin is hot and your voice is loud.

0:09 SPEAKER_00: And like so, interoception is saying, Nope, like that's not true.

0:12 SPEAKER_00: Let's help each person to understand their own bodies, to to understand, you know, maybe deep breathing doesn't work for everyone and everybody, right?

0:21 SPEAKER_00: So, how do we help each person understand their body enough to know what it needs to thrive in this world, to be regulated, to feel comfortable, et cetera?

0:29 SPEAKER_00: And so that's like really what my mission is is like to push us all towards more curiosity, to like understanding and believing each person's inner experience.

Welcome And Meet Kelly Mahler

0:41 SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Attuned Spectrum Podcast.

0:43 SPEAKER_01: I'm Chantal Hewitt, an Aud mom, experienced educator, and autism support coach who understands your path because I also walk it daily.

0:53 SPEAKER_01: This is your space for real conversations that empower your autistic child, yourself, and your family to thrive.

1:00 SPEAKER_01: Here we respect neurodiversity, cheer on advocacy, and leave judgment at the door.

1:06 SPEAKER_01: Join me inside this week's episode.

1:14 SPEAKER_01: Today I'm so privileged to have Kelly Mollard join us.

1:18 SPEAKER_01: And I will just speak first to who Kelly is and why I've invited her on the show today, and then we will jump right in because I am so excited to have this really important conversation about introsception work with our autistic children, with our neurodivergent children.

1:37 SPEAKER_01: And I think it is a conversation that so many people we don't really give it the priority that it needs for whatever reason.

1:44 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm just so grateful, Kelly, that you are here.

1:46 SPEAKER_01: So thank you.

1:48 SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.

1:49 SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited.

1:50 SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

1:50 SPEAKER_01: You're so welcome.

1:51 SPEAKER_01: Kelly Muller is an award-winning occupational therapist, author, and introsception groupie, known for her boundless curiosity and empathetic approach.

2:00 SPEAKER_01: She holds a doctorate in occupational therapy and has served school-aged children and adults for over 22 years.

2:06 SPEAKER_01: Kelly is author of 12 resources, including the Introsception curriculum, now used in over 30 countries worldwide.

2:12 SPEAKER_01: She enjoys speaking internationally on introsception, pro-affirming practices, and playful strategies for inner exploration using a lens of curiosity, validation, and empathy.

2:22 SPEAKER_01: How did that sit, Kelly?

2:23 SPEAKER_01: Did that hit the mark?

2:24 SPEAKER_01: It did the job, yes.

2:25 SPEAKER_01: Thank you.

2:26 SPEAKER_01: You're welcome.

2:27 SPEAKER_01: Okay.

2:28 SPEAKER_01: Now that I've kind of given that super amazing and like short background on you, um, would you like to introduce yourself to the listeners of a Toon Spectrum podcast?

2:37 SPEAKER_00: Sure.

2:37 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really such an honor to be here.

2:40 SPEAKER_00: So thanks for inviting me.

2:41 SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, what I realized that that bio is missing is a really huge part of my job.

2:45 SPEAKER_00: And I am a mom of two teenage daughters.

2:49 SPEAKER_00: So I am in the thick of hormones and to talk about introsphen and inner field, lots of things happening that brings so much joy to my life.

2:58 SPEAKER_00: Nice.

2:59 SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you go.

3:00 SPEAKER_00: I guess um I really am also here to talk about introsphen, which is a really big, another big part of my life.

3:07 SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I've always been like so interested as an occupational therapist on supporting like mental health and sensory, sensory stuff and emotion regulation for my clients and learning about introsception.

What Interoception Really Means

3:19 SPEAKER_00: Like I was already 10 years into my career before I even knew that the sense that we're here to talk about existed.

3:25 SPEAKER_00: Learning about interception, you know, I know we're gonna talk more about what it is, but it's like really about how our body is feeling.

3:31 SPEAKER_00: That has completely shifted the way that I support my clients.

3:34 SPEAKER_00: It has completely shifted, actually, I've been on my own personal journey and like exploring my own neurotype, my own interceptive experiences.

3:42 SPEAKER_00: And it just has like really changed everything.

3:45 SPEAKER_00: So that's why it like really makes me excited to have this opportunity to talk with you and your listeners about the topic.

3:50 SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.

3:51 SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much.

3:52 SPEAKER_01: And congratulations on your own journey.

3:54 SPEAKER_01: I think that um, yeah, so so many of us where we learn about this and we've got this passion, and then we're like, hold on, I see myself.

4:03 SPEAKER_01: And maybe this is where the passion has come from the whole time of supporting that inner or even the children or the other people that you work with.

4:11 SPEAKER_01: That's um, that's my experience anyway.

4:13 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I definitely I I think you're right on the on the money with that.

4:17 SPEAKER_00: Like, definitely that's where my passion comes from.

4:19 SPEAKER_01: So, Kelly, you you've spoke a little bit about your mission, and if you can kind of describe it in a couple sentences of like what you hope that this work or this understanding of introspension as a sense, which so many people aren't aware of, at least in my experience.

4:33 SPEAKER_01: Um, what is your hope for your work?

4:35 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, if it's okay, I'll just elaborate a little bit on introspine because I think that'll make the mission a little bit like easier to understand, perhaps.

4:44 SPEAKER_00: Perfect.

4:45 SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

4:45 SPEAKER_00: So in case introspension new to the listeners, like it is very new to a lot of people, like we have an eighth sense.

4:51 SPEAKER_00: Surprise, like not something I learned about.

4:54 SPEAKER_00: And so interoception is the sense of how our body feels.

4:57 SPEAKER_00: And so we all like experience different sensations within our body.

5:01 SPEAKER_00: It's so different for each one of us.

5:02 SPEAKER_00: So I'll just give some examples that might relate to some of your listeners, but like, like if you've ever noticed like your heart pounding, or maybe you feel like your muscles tensing, or you have a headache, or your stomach might be growling or feel tingly or empty, or your bladder feels full and you gotta go.

5:18 SPEAKER_00: Or there's so many like inner sensations that we have, and we experience those because of this sense called introsception.

5:24 SPEAKER_00: And what we are learning from a lot of science, like introsception is probably the hottest topic right now in neuroscience.

5:30 SPEAKER_00: It is like the research is exploding.

5:32 SPEAKER_00: My mission has been really to like take all of this like very technical research and say, okay, like what does this mean to all of our lives?

5:40 SPEAKER_00: And like what like the deeper mission behind like what I'm so passionate about is like introsception drives curiosity in my mind.

5:48 SPEAKER_00: It helps us to be on this quest to understand each person's inner experience.

5:52 SPEAKER_00: Like, how does your body feel in this world?

5:54 SPEAKER_00: What does your body uniquely need?

5:56 SPEAKER_00: Because what we know from so many lived experiences and research is that no two bodies are alike.

6:03 SPEAKER_00: Um, so like what your body feels like when you're sleepy is probably different than what my body feels like when I'm sleepy.

6:08 SPEAKER_00: And what your body feels like when you're like, I don't know, upset or overwhelmed is probably different than what my body feels like.

6:14 SPEAKER_01: So I love that.

6:15 SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, something that came up, Kelly, that you said that I think might be really applicable to the listeners of a tuned spectrum is you talked about that the emotions and that, you know, we were kind of always taught that when we feel something, when we feel angry, what does that feel like?

6:29 SPEAKER_01: And even like I'm thinking back to my teaching, and you see like a face of a person angry.

6:35 SPEAKER_01: And so many neurodivergent children, especially like I'm thinking in my mind, autistic children, they're looking at that and they're going, what do you want me to make of this?

6:43 SPEAKER_01: Like what I don't really understand.

6:44 SPEAKER_01: And it's almost like that whole masking, which is a different thing, is then they're going, well, how how do I perform here?

6:50 SPEAKER_01: Like, how am I supposed to feel opposed to what I'm hearing from you?

6:53 SPEAKER_01: And correct me if I'm wrong, but is how can we flip it to my body might be different, all of our bodies are different, I'm feeling this feeling, and it might look different in me and to my friend.

7:05 SPEAKER_01: And I wonder too if parents might find this really helpful because when you mention deep breathing, I'm even just thinking with my own son.

7:14 SPEAKER_01: And because he's PDA, that demand in itself of going, not even to mention the let's be calm now.

7:19 SPEAKER_01: Well, what does calm look like for any child, for us, for how do we regulate?

7:25 SPEAKER_01: Um, this is quite a run-on sentence now, but I'm not sure what we can pull from this.

7:30 SPEAKER_01: But do you agree there with the yeah, just finding like a practical way I'm thinking for parents?

7:35 SPEAKER_01: Do you have any guidance or advice of where they could start if they're working through those big meltdowns or those emotions that come up?

7:41 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there's like so many different places we can start, and there's so much to unpack and just that one lovely run-on sentence that you just gave.

7:49 SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it's gonna depend on each child, but like basically, like, if I'm gonna take a big per picture approach, it's really starting at the body signal level.

Start With Signals Not Skills

7:57 SPEAKER_00: Like many times we're starting at emotion words or we're starting at coping skills, and like we're way too far ahead in the process.

8:04 SPEAKER_00: Like kids need to like be in their bodies, noticing how their body uniquely feels, so that that gives them clues to what emotion they may be experiencing, what their body actually might need.

8:16 SPEAKER_00: And it also gives them if they're connected to their body, they're able to start exploring what we just said, like what your body might need, but in a way that matches their body.

8:26 SPEAKER_00: They're not memorizing ideas that we think will be good for their body.

8:29 SPEAKER_00: We think co, we think deep breathing will be good for your body, but actually, what is really good for your body?

8:35 SPEAKER_00: They need to get that to be able for them to drive that process to have full autonomy over picking what works for their body, they have to like be connected to those body signals.

8:44 SPEAKER_00: And so to me, like big picture, how do we start at that body signal level?

8:49 SPEAKER_00: How do we get rid of those emotion words that I think are so overused?

8:52 SPEAKER_00: Like you're so right.

8:53 SPEAKER_00: Like the way we, and I just want to, I just want to say to your listeners first, like everything that I am like kind of challenging, I have used myself as a parent and as a therapist.

9:03 SPEAKER_00: I have thrown emotional words around, I have taught coping skills like for years and years.

9:08 SPEAKER_00: Like, I just want to just say, like, interception is like when I say it has shifted my practice, like I mean that in a very genuine way.

9:15 SPEAKER_00: Like, so you know, like how do we help kids start to like explore and learn about the different ways their hands feel or their mouth feels or their eyes feel or their stomach feels?

9:23 SPEAKER_00: There's so much playfulness to this work and how we how we kind of set that up for our kids is gonna look different.

9:30 SPEAKER_00: So maybe we don't want to put a demand on our kids.

9:32 SPEAKER_00: So maybe we just start talking about our own sensations out loud, no pressure on any response, but we're just like kind of putting out to the world, like, hey, like I have a body signal that I'm noticing.

9:45 SPEAKER_00: And like maybe it's like, you know, oh my gosh, like my hands feel so sticky from that orange.

9:49 SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go wash them.

9:50 SPEAKER_00: So you don't have to like spill your inner feels.

9:52 SPEAKER_00: Like it doesn't, you know, you're just talking about like your body signals and and how noticing that body signal is going to help you take care of the way your body feels.

10:01 SPEAKER_00: So like that modeling, or gosh, it's like so loud in here right now, it's making me rage.

10:05 SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm gonna put on my noise canceling airpods, you know.

10:09 SPEAKER_00: So, like talking about the body signals through our own experience, like that adult modeling is one of my most favorite strategies to help families like put into place.

10:19 SPEAKER_00: And before I pause here, I just want to like say that it's one of my favorite strategies, but it's also one of the hardest strategies because many of us as caregivers, as parents, many of us are not in our own bodies.

10:31 SPEAKER_00: We have been raised.

10:33 SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna overgeneralize quick for time's sake, but we live in a society that does not celebrate us being in our bodies, listening to our bodies, honoring what our body needs.

10:42 SPEAKER_00: Like we have been raised in like compliance culture, you know, like where you ignore the way your body needs so that you can be tough and you can follow rules from other people and you can please other people.

Adult Modelling That Makes It Visible

10:53 SPEAKER_00: And like our sometimes our self-worth is even like based on how much we can override our body and push and be tough and productive, right?

11:01 SPEAKER_00: So, like I just want to like say an important strategy for parents to start talking about their bodies, but a really, really hard one.

11:08 SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'll pause there.

11:09 SPEAKER_00: I have a lot more to say about that, but myself giving run-on-run sentences.

11:13 SPEAKER_01: Oh no, I think it's um, I love this.

11:15 SPEAKER_01: Yet two people in I was gonna say in a room, in a recording room online on the stream.

11:20 SPEAKER_01: Um, just the ideas.

11:21 SPEAKER_01: I'm just getting so fired up, actually, with all the stuff that you're saying, because it is so true and so valid.

11:29 SPEAKER_01: I think, not that I want to either like bring in that whole society aspect, not because it's not important, but because it is there's so much at play there, right?

11:37 SPEAKER_01: But when you were speaking, all I was thinking of was actually me parenting.

11:42 SPEAKER_01: And when I'm trying to co-regulate and support my autistic child, my PDA child, and I've got three children under the age of five with varying neurodivergence that we're seeing.

11:52 SPEAKER_01: And because I myself am autistic and ADHD and I'm PDA, that then brings this whole other layer of how do I support myself while I'm supposed to support my child.

12:05 SPEAKER_01: And because society is so fast, because we're, hey, you've got to get out the door, you've got to get to school, you need to put on your shoes because mom said so.

12:14 SPEAKER_01: It is that whole compliance piece.

12:16 SPEAKER_01: And for one child to another, their response could be different.

12:20 SPEAKER_01: But I do wonder what would happen if we did get into this practice.

12:24 SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure that you experience this as I do.

12:27 SPEAKER_01: Um, but it is a practice of, well, hold on, let's slow down.

12:30 SPEAKER_01: What am I feeling in this rush?

12:32 SPEAKER_01: What is my child feeling?

12:34 SPEAKER_01: Perhaps what demands what change of routine has happened that may make a transition really challenging for them?

12:41 SPEAKER_01: And then what's expected in the aftermath of all this?

13:11 SPEAKER_00: Yes.

13:12 SPEAKER_00: I think like even just if we can talking out loud about the messiness of all of this is so incredibly validating to our kids.

13:20 SPEAKER_00: I get so many like families and and even clients coming to me, like, you know, some of them are like 10, 11, all the way up through teenagers.

13:29 SPEAKER_00: And they have this accidental messaging that they, this is all like perfect.

13:33 SPEAKER_00: And you should always know exactly what emotion you're experiencing.

13:36 SPEAKER_00: You should always know exactly what zone you're in.

13:38 SPEAKER_00: You should always know exactly what tool your body needs.

13:40 SPEAKER_00: And like the fact of the matter is, like, I don't know many human beings that always have that knowledge about their body and have access.

13:48 SPEAKER_00: And, you know, and and I also think that our kids hear so many accidental messaging again of like, we should always be happy or we should always be calm or we should always be, you know, I don't know, like in the green zone.

14:00 SPEAKER_00: And come on, like that's so like I feel like even if things are going awry, that is like one of the best, I think, moments to make to help our kids see like this is hard stuff.

14:11 SPEAKER_00: It's messy.

14:12 SPEAKER_00: I don't even like I have a weird feeling in my body, I don't even know what's going on.

14:15 SPEAKER_00: Like even saying something like that out loud, I have like, you know, found to be so reassuring um to the kids that I'm supporting.

14:22 SPEAKER_01: That's really interesting.

14:24 SPEAKER_01: Thanks for sharing that.

14:25 SPEAKER_01: And like when you it's funny, you talked about validation of children, and which is obviously something that I I do all the time.

14:32 SPEAKER_01: Like I think indirectly, but I don't necessarily say it because I'm speaking, you know, like when I'm primarily at the moment working with parents, like within our coaching community and within like um like longer journeys of um like parent coaching that I'm working through with people, it's very much parent-centered, which I think is so important.

Compliance Culture And Believing Kids

14:48 SPEAKER_01: But then also when we're using those words to support the parent, if we actually unpack it, it's like this this parent is, you know, in their their midlife, they're supporting and working through all of this and they're learning these skills.

15:01 SPEAKER_01: So of course, if they are benefiting from feeling validated, that that's probably what was missing when they were younger as well.

15:08 SPEAKER_01: So, like looking at how that can transfer, I just yeah, I just wanted to follow up or like comment on the validation for children piece that I think comes back to when you talk about the compliance culture.

15:19 SPEAKER_01: And to me, if you look at that, where's the respect for children?

15:22 SPEAKER_01: Whereas if we bring that validation piece into the conversation, how wonderful that we begin to give them the language, model that for them, show them that it's okay to be angry and not know why.

15:33 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.

15:34 SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

15:34 SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think the belief piece of the interception, you know, work or whatever you want to call it, the paradigm.

15:41 SPEAKER_00: I think that like is emerging as key to all of this work, you know, because like even in like the interception strategies that we use, our number one rule is that we always believe anything anyone tells us about their body, whether that's through spoken language, that's through their body language.

15:56 SPEAKER_00: Like, and even if it doesn't make sense to us, we are going to show them that we believe them because and now you're like really giving me this epiphany because I like I think just as a, you know, as like our generation, we didn't get that.

16:09 SPEAKER_00: Like we compliance is anti-belief.

16:12 SPEAKER_00: Compliance is I don't believe what your body needs, and you need to like shut it down, mask it, suppress it, and please other people.

16:19 SPEAKER_00: It's anti-belief, anti-validation.

16:22 SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

16:23 SPEAKER_00: And where has that left us?

16:24 SPEAKER_00: Doesn't feel so good, does it, as an adult?

16:26 SPEAKER_00: So hence my own interception journey.

16:30 SPEAKER_01: No, and now you are it's so interesting because even just as you're speaking, I'm reflecting and going, you know, as I've been working through the last couple of years on on my journey and my neurotype and discovering that as a parent, as a mother, and like going, you know, back through that identity formation.

16:44 SPEAKER_01: Um, I never actually so this more of a parental thing at the moment that I'll quickly just say, but using the word interoception on myself, I've been using it so much on children that thank you, Kelly, because now I'm almost wondering if that's gonna be my new the way that I'm gonna be speaking when I when I talk about that regulation for us is because I think it it's spoken about, like maybe indirectly, but I think when you name something, it just makes a bit more sense.

17:10 SPEAKER_01: And like you said at the beginning, like as I'm like so like jumping into yeah, introsception, you're like, oh, but so many people don't know that there's this eighth sense, you know.

17:18 SPEAKER_01: My husband the other day was like, What do you mean there's eight?

17:20 SPEAKER_01: Aren't there five?

17:21 SPEAKER_01: Which I think a lot of people still believe because it isn't unless you're really deep into that that work with your body.

17:28 SPEAKER_01: It's yeah, it can be really validating and and eye-opening.

17:32 SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

17:33 SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

17:34 SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

17:34 SPEAKER_00: I know.

17:35 SPEAKER_00: I hear that from so many parents too.

17:37 SPEAKER_00: Like when we give them when we talk about introsception with them and the fact that this thing exists, you know, like a lot of them do have personal epiphanies, but then they also are like, oh my gosh, that explains like why I knew this about my child.

17:50 SPEAKER_00: I just didn't have a word for it.

17:51 SPEAKER_00: You know, it it it is just like naming it and validating, like it confirms a lot of hunches that they have, you know, about their kids and it gives them this like greater space to follow that hunch and be more curious about their kid.

18:03 SPEAKER_00: Like this isn't a quote unquote purposeful behavior.

18:06 SPEAKER_00: Like there is something inside their body that is actually happening, although they know that.

18:10 SPEAKER_00: But like sometimes the science, the name is like yes, okay.

18:14 SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just reminding me.

18:15 SPEAKER_01: I was just on a call with a parent who I've been supporting and they mentioned that validation piece, but of thinking that there was something wrong with their child, which I hear a lot of, you know, these big meltdowns, is a female, so like highly, highly socialized, masking, you know, into their like late teens now, and just hearing the fact that like what they needed was to go, oh, hold on, there's something bigger at play here that we're missing.

18:39 SPEAKER_01: And it it's not my child, it's them trying to figure out what is happening within their body, not necessarily knowing how to express it, not even knowing, but just knowing how to make sense of it.

18:49 SPEAKER_01: Because the expression is what it is, you know, it might come out through aggression or violence or screaming or sometimes self-harm, which is really tricky to manage as a parent.

18:59 SPEAKER_01: Um, oh, and as a person going through that.

19:02 SPEAKER_01: But when we bring that word into play and we go, well, hold on, at that foundation, at the base level, like what is going on within the body?

19:10 SPEAKER_01: And it's different than what I'm seeing and what this person's seeing.

19:14 SPEAKER_00: And it's invisible, isn't it?

19:16 SPEAKER_00: It is invisible.

19:17 SPEAKER_01: Yes.

19:17 SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is, which is like circling back full circle here, which is why modeling is can be really helpful because you're taking an invisible process and you're making it kind of out loud for your child, if I can bring that back full circle.

19:30 SPEAKER_00: I didn't really intend to do that, but yeah, like it is an invisible process.

19:33 SPEAKER_00: So how do we start to make this more visible?

19:36 SPEAKER_00: Um, I think is really, really important.

19:38 SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

19:38 SPEAKER_01: And I I'm having the background, um, I'm still a practicing teacher and I've worked, you know, with that young, young children, that early childhood through to like early primary, but we're always taught it is about need them to have emotional literacy.

19:52 SPEAKER_01: So I shouldn't be mocking that, but it's like that concept, or they need to learn how to self-regulate.

19:58 SPEAKER_01: And it's like, how many adults do you know that can self-regulate?

20:04 SPEAKER_01: Like, well, you know, it's a practice.

20:06 SPEAKER_01: And I think when we do share that knowledge and we go, hey, this is how I feel.

20:11 SPEAKER_01: So it is, I I love modeling, like that's always my kind of go-to strategy.

20:15 SPEAKER_01: And I think as a parent, that's probably shifted the most in having like a calm and connected household for the most part, as much as you can raising neurodivergent children in a very neurodivergent family in a high-paced society.

20:29 SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I do agree with you.

20:31 SPEAKER_01: I think that modeling peace is the key, but you're right, it it takes time and it is a practice because you're shifting those inner beliefs and how we were raised.

20:40 SPEAKER_01: And like you said, that anti-compliance, which is yeah, yeah.

20:45 SPEAKER_01: It's yeah.

20:46 SPEAKER_00: So be gentle, be gentle, everyone listening on yourselves.

20:50 SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

20:50 SPEAKER_01: I guess we we're kind of wrapping up this conversation, but something that has popped to mind is because I know some of the listeners are looking at demand avoidance or that that drive for autonomy.

20:59 SPEAKER_01: And Kelly, you mentioned autonomy and how that kind of links to introsception and that awareness.

PDA Autonomy And Body Demands

21:04 SPEAKER_01: So I do wonder how you feel PDA, pathological demand avoidance, or that persistent drive for autonomy.

21:11 SPEAKER_01: How could that fit into understanding for families, interoception, if they have a demand-avoidant child or a high autonomy-seeking child?

21:20 SPEAKER_01: What could that change for them?

21:22 SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think we could talk about this for a few hours.

21:25 SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of interoception ties here.

21:27 SPEAKER_00: And I've learned so much of this about introsphen and PDA from Christy Forbes.

21:31 SPEAKER_00: So of course have to give her full credit.

21:34 SPEAKER_00: But one of the things I think is like so important to think about is, you know, our bodies can, those body signals that we've been talking about, those interceptive signals, can be demands.

21:45 SPEAKER_00: Like, let's think about that.

21:46 SPEAKER_00: Like, so all of a sudden, and this is gonna be different for each kid, but like maybe all of a sudden my stomach starts to growl, you know, and like shoot, like my body needs food.

21:53 SPEAKER_00: Like that is a demand, or my bladder feels full, like and I need to pee.

21:57 SPEAKER_00: Like that is a demand.

21:58 SPEAKER_00: That is your body naturally, you know, kind of showing up but putting a demand on you.

22:02 SPEAKER_00: So I think there's so much to unpack that we don't even like fully like grasp and understand.

22:08 SPEAKER_00: But when Christy like talks about that, like that just like that was like so insightful for me.

22:14 SPEAKER_00: And I think that it's really important for us to be thinking about that.

22:17 SPEAKER_00: Or even like, you know, the the building feelings of overwhelm that in and of itself is a demand.

22:22 SPEAKER_00: Your body is demanding it needs something from you, right?

22:25 SPEAKER_00: That you don't have.

22:26 SPEAKER_00: full autonomy over.

22:27 SPEAKER_00: Um and and so I think just even thinking about that can be really, really helpful.

22:31 SPEAKER_01: No, it is.

22:32 SPEAKER_01: And I think again, like look, that word invisible, right?

22:35 SPEAKER_01: It is such an invisible piece.

22:37 SPEAKER_01: And I just think of the families and the biggest things that come up and some of them that you mentioned, they all have to do with interoception needs and those demands.

22:43 SPEAKER_01: So the toileting, huge.

22:45 SPEAKER_01: Sleep is another one when you don't, you know, have the control and a lot of um neurodivergent children, there's melatonin or other like sleep supports, which are incredible.

22:54 SPEAKER_01: And a lot of families use them.

22:55 SPEAKER_01: Like I'm I use them for myself and my children do as well.

22:58 SPEAKER_01: But what I've noticed is because they work so fast sometimes, that can be if it's not timed properly, that is another demand being placed because it's like, hold on, I don't have control over now my body is like coming down real quick.

23:12 SPEAKER_01: And then there's this explosion.

23:14 SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that to say it's right or wrong.

23:16 SPEAKER_01: Like we we fully lean into that because we need to for our family.

23:20 SPEAKER_00: I see you nodding as they're like are you like like I'm just having a major like brain explosion.

23:24 SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.

23:25 SPEAKER_00: Oh just absolutely percent yeah yeah wow yeah so I'm just like I'm processing what you just said that's like so yes yeah if you're if it's not timed and you're not like completely ready and um that that complete fast crash for the melatonin is a demand.

23:42 SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

23:43 SPEAKER_01: Thank you interesting isn't it?

23:44 SPEAKER_01: I love I also love that like when a conversation you're like oh my gosh like yeah mind blowing.

23:50 SPEAKER_01: I love that for everyone.

23:52 SPEAKER_01: But yeah that those are the big things and I think they're obviously like your fundamental needs which is like for us what PDA kind of comes back to is that you're resisting those those everyday things that you need in so many families.

24:02 SPEAKER_01: I think when I mentioned because there's a lot of our experience as well for our oldest um a lot of toileting like interception like supports that we're putting in place there.

24:11 SPEAKER_01: But also it's a little bit different because those autism strategies are strategies to support autistic children within that if you've got a PEA profile, it kind of just doesn't work a lot of the time because even those strategies right that that you're putting in place they're and I think you mentioned at the beginning like the coping strategies that you've trialed and used it's almost like when you try to put those in place and your trials down here, the strategies are you know meant for not meant for you know what I mean?

24:35 SPEAKER_01: Like they're coming in from a different intention and approach and it's just too much too much of a demand.

24:41 SPEAKER_00: Too much of a demand.

24:43 SPEAKER_00: You know and we've been learning so much about like just even the concept of of felt safety and how, you know, like our body needs to feel safe in order for our interceptive system to kind of be online.

24:55 SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that, like if if we are like dysregulated, our body is most likely not going to be focusing their attention on how my body feels right.

25:04 SPEAKER_00: And so that that element of like nervous system regulation of felt safety is key before we even can start like thinking about like those strategies that you're saying are all the way up way higher on on the brain like access scale for toileting.

Felt Safety Before Any Strategy

25:19 SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

25:20 SPEAKER_00: And so we're we're talking and we even talk about that with like our feeding and eating stuff everything supports too like not doing anything until someone feels as safe as possible because the first thing to go with feeding and eating like with appetite like there's so much research showing that fear will cancel out appetite, the hunger, the drive to eat.

25:38 SPEAKER_00: So like it just kind of you know makes sense what you're saying.

25:41 SPEAKER_00: Like we have to like start kind of earlier in the process of like let's just help kids feel as safe as possible in their bodies.

25:47 SPEAKER_00: And then you know how that ties to interception is then they'll have more access to those body signals.

25:52 SPEAKER_00: And hopefully if they're in a more regulated way, they can kind of interact with those signals in hopefully a way that's like you know able they're able to meet their body's needs in a more you know in a way that's not perceived as a as so much of a threat to their nervous system.

26:06 SPEAKER_00: I feel like I could just add to that for ages.

26:08 SPEAKER_01: But we're gonna open up a whole other thing I will say I fully agree.

26:13 SPEAKER_01: The one thought that did just come to mind that I kind of want to end with is that you you kept mentioning that felt safety and the nervous system.

26:20 SPEAKER_01: And I think that because some parents go, how long will this process take right?

26:24 SPEAKER_01: And I'm going, well hold on your your child's 10, they're 12, they're they're three we've already lived a lot of different approaches and they so like something that it's not something we can just undo, right?

26:36 SPEAKER_01: Like it it does take time.

26:38 SPEAKER_01: Just like people say like oh you've grown a baby for nine months and then now you're expected to you know lose all this weight and you're like well hold on how long did I grow the baby?

26:45 SPEAKER_01: You know you body just like in burnout if you're in an autistic burnout it doesn't just go away overnight.

26:51 SPEAKER_01: It takes time and and it's okay to go down to those attachment based foundations.

26:56 SPEAKER_01: Like you look when a baby's born they need trust and safety they need their needs met, you know?

27:01 SPEAKER_01: And somewhere along the way, it's not saying it gets lost, but so many other things kind of I believe come into play and then now you're going, oh hold on, we just need to head back to that place.

27:11 SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

27:11 SPEAKER_01: Okay.

27:12 SPEAKER_01: Well I would love Kelly I know you have so much going on is the and feel free to just you know start banging off a list of things that um supports that you can offer but if there's anything that you feel the listeners here might benefit from, um I can just pop this in the show notes as well.

27:26 SPEAKER_01: So everyone listening, just head on over and then you can get directed to anything that Kelly is about to share with you.

Free Resources And Listener Prompt

27:31 SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

27:32 SPEAKER_00: Probably the easiest place to start if you're if you're wanting to learn more about interception is my website.

27:37 SPEAKER_00: So it's Kelly Mahler.com and if you go um on my homepage up to the top there's a whole section called free resources in that drop down menu.

27:46 SPEAKER_00: However you like to digest your information there's videos there's blogs there's free little printables but one of the free printables is our adult modeling booklet.

27:55 SPEAKER_00: So if you want to learn more about interception as like the adult modeling piece, there's a whole free booklet there that you can print out and you can read more about that.

28:02 SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.

28:03 SPEAKER_01: And I'm pretty sure I'm already on your email list but I will be heading over after this recording to go grab that booklet.

28:09 SPEAKER_01: So thank you.

28:10 SPEAKER_01: All right thank you so much Kelly for taking the time to join me for this conversation.

28:15 SPEAKER_01: There's such an important conversation that I think needs to have.

28:18 SPEAKER_01: No it's just the beginning.

28:20 SPEAKER_01: Yeah I really appreciate you coming on thank you.

28:22 SPEAKER_01: Yeah thanks for having me it was a lot of fun thank you so much for allowing me into your world today.

28:30 SPEAKER_01: Wherever you are around the globe, if you like what you've heard, I would be so grateful if you would click that subscribe button and comment below to tell me one thing.

28:40 SPEAKER_01: What support do you need?

28:42 SPEAKER_01: This helps me create episodes that truly impact our shared community by commenting you not only help yourself but you help make modern neurodiversity affirming autism support accessible to those who are searching for a better parenting approach that actually feels good.

29:00 SPEAKER_01: I'm Chantel and I'll see you next week.